Comments for MONTFORT

Comment on Open Thread – Montfort’s Descendants and Genealogy by Peter de Loriol

Peter de Loriol — Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:10:13 +0000

I, amongst many others descend from Simon de Montfort, many many times. The inspiration for the count of Monte Cristo was rather more prosaic. It is the standard vehicle for the ‘revenge is a dish better served cold’ scenario and was much used by many 19th century authors (and 20th) in varying degrees of success. Dumas explained it in his notes on the novel that are kept at the Archives Nationales in Paris. He used many sources but De Montfort’s son does not seem to be part of his game plan…………

Comment on The families of SIMON DE MONTFORT’s brothers, sisters, first cousins by ventliane

ventliane — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:34:23 +0000

For Lorraine from Valentina
This is what I can tell you for the moment. Please, let me know if you want more on Petronille- Peronelle.
Guy de Montfort,
Seigneur de Rambouillet, comte de Bigorre
Married Petronille de Comminges, Vicomtesse de Marsan, (d. aft. 1251).
A. Their daughter Alix de Montfort, comtesse de Bigorre (~1216 – ~ 1255),Vicomtesse de Marsan. Married:
I. her first husband Jourdain VIII de Chabanais, Jourdain-Eschivat, dit Eschivat III ( b~ 1190), great nephew of her mother’s last husband.
A. 1. Eschivat IV (d. 1283) comte de Bigorre (de 1255 à 1283) et comte d’Armagnac et de Fézensac (de 1255 à 1256), seigneur de Chabannais cède son comté à son oncle et tuteur Simon de Leicester pendant 10 ans. Married:
1) in 1255 Mascarose II de Lomagne d’Armagnac (d. 1255), comtesse d’Armagnac et de Fézensac
2) in 1256 Inès (ou Agnès) de Foix, daughter of Roger IV, comte de Foix.
granddaughter of Roger-Bernard II le Grand comte de Foix, vicomte de Castelbon, partisan des Albigeois puis réconcilié avec l’Eglise (Paix avec Louis IX en 1229). Her niece Constance de Foix married in 1296 her husband’s cousin Jean de Levis, seigneur de Mirepoix. Her nephew Gaston I de Foix (1287- 13/12/1315 in battle), comte de Foix, vicomte de Béarn et de Castelbon married in 1301(at Senlis) her husband’s niece Jeanne d’Artois.
A.2. Laure de Chabanais, comtesse de Bigorre (~1245- 1316). Elle lsuccèda son frere dans la possession des terres de Chabanais et de Confolens.
Married 1. her first husband ?….. de Rochechouart? (1215-1284) seigneur d’Availles
Their children:
a. ?Aymeri de Rochechouart ? (1260-d. 1304). His daughter Lore (Laure) of Rochechouart- Chabanais, Dame de Availles-Limousine, Chabanais, Confolens, (~1285-~ 1356?) married his cousin Simon, vicomte de Rochechouart (in 1306), Seigneur de Tonnay- Charente, Saint-Germain et Availles ( 1270-~ 1349) avec dispense du pape.
b. Léticie de Rochechouart married Raymond VII, vicomte de Turenne (d. in battle in 1304, Flandres) son of Raymond V de Turenne. Their daughter Marguerite de Turenne married Bernard VII, comte de Comminges.
c. Adélaïde de Rochechouart married her cousin Aimery de Rochechouart, seigneur d’Availles.
Married 2. her second husband Raymond VI, vicomte de Turenne

II Married in ~1247 Raoul de Courtenay (1223 – 1271 Naples), son of Robert I de Courtenay, cousin of Charles de Anjou, (grandson of Pierre I de France and Elisabeth de Courtenay), seigneur d’Illiers, Neuvy, Paudy, Tramelay, Pymorin, comte de Chieti (Abruzzes), au Royaume de Naples. Their daughter Mahaut de Courtenay (~before 1254 – 1303, Naples), comtesse di Chieti e Teano, dame de Pandy et Neuvy, married in 1284 (before 25/06), at Wijnendaele, Philippe de Dampierre-Flandres ( ~1263 -11/1318, Italie), comte di Teano, brother of Guillaume de Dampierre, son of her cousin Alix de Clermont Nesle.

B. Peronelle de Montfort, dame de Rambouillet married Raoul IV (Paynel de La Roche-Tesson, sénéchal de Normandie. Their children:
B1. Jean I de La Roche-Tesson married Jeanne des Moutiers. They had 12 children, including Jean II de La Roche-Tesson
B2. Guillaume Tesson (before 1270- before 1313) seigneur de La Roche-Tesson, L’Espinay, Le Tesson et Percy
B3. Jeanne Tesson married
a. Robert de Thibouville. Their son Robert de Thibouville seigneur de La Vallée. His daughter Agnès de Thibouville (b.1310) married in 1326 Raoul de Meullent (Meulan), seigneur de Bernières. Their son Raoul III de Meullent, baron de Courseulles. His son Jean de Meullent (b. 1384), seigneur du Quesnay married Marguerite le Servain, dame de Saint-Paer. Their son Thomas de Meullent. Married:
- Beatrix d’Ivoy, daughter of Jean, seigneur d’Ivoy, chevalier. Their daughter Jeanne de Meullent, baronne de Saint Paer, dame de Ivoy, de La Rochelle, Bellefontaine, Lyons- sur- mer, du Mesnil-Adelee&Montigny married Jean d’Auray
- Jeanne d’Avaugour, fille de Guillaume d’Avaugour, bailli in Torainne, Poitou, Anjou, Maine. Their daughter Perrine de Meullent, baronne de Courseulles married Guillaume de Rosnivinen
b. Robert III de Bricqueville chevalier, seigneur de Bricqueville et Laune. Their son Jean de Bricqueville (d. 25/04/1340) married in 1330 Jeanne de Calletot

Comment on The families of SIMON DE MONTFORT’s brothers, sisters, first cousins by katherine

katherine — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:33:37 +0000

Our genealogist, Valentina Baciu is particularly interested in Guy and his descendants at present. You can direct your questions to her at valen b .

Comment on The families of SIMON DE MONTFORT’s brothers, sisters, first cousins by Lorraine Busch

Lorraine Busch — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:27:40 +0000

Can you give me any information about Guy de Montfort born 1192 and died at Castenaudary July 1230. I know his wife was Petronille de Comminges and that he had two daughters Alix and Petronelle. I am most interested in the two daughters. especially Petronille. I only know that she was married to a man named Raoul Paynel Tesson. Thank you.

Comment on An Alchemist, an Earl and the Stupor Mundi: the cannon and gunpowder in 13th century Europe, with a nod to Tess of the D’Urbervilles. by Valentina

Valentina — Sat, 14 Jan 2012 19:36:58 +0000

Katherine,
I have just read on Roger Bacon in my favorite ’1860 French dictionary. Only now I can tell you that I totally agree with your approach…..I am sure that Simon had many affinities with this famous scholar. Simon’s son Amaury must have had exceptional mentors, Adam Marsh and even Roger Bacon. In my source, they say that Roger Bacon even preached against king Henry’s political friends in 1259!
” Apres avoir obtenu le grade de docteur en theologie, il revint, dit-on en Angleterre, et entra dans l’ordre de Saint Francois, par le conseil du savant Robert Greathead ou Grosseteste, eveque de Lincoln, qui l’honorait de sa bienviellance et de sa protection. Le frere Roger se fit d’abord connaitre en 1259 par un sermon qu’il prononca a Oxford devant Henri III. Il y censura le roi de ce qu’il deferait trop aux avis de Pierre, eveque de Winchester et de ce qu’il donnait les premiers emplois du royaume a des etrangers “

Comment on Valentina Baciu’s Research by Valentina

Valentina — Sun, 10 Jul 2011 15:21:27 +0000

In less than one month we will have 746 years of mourning! Simon will live as long as the representative democracy will lead the civilized world!

SONG ON THE DEATH OF SIMON DE MONTFORT

The poem is written on a fly leaf in a manuscript belonging to Caius College . On a fly leaf at the beginning of the volume occurs our song. The poem is written in minute letters, and hardly fills half the page. I must not pretend to have read through the whole of the Caius MS., but all that I have seen of it seems to favour the belief that this copy of the song was written within ten or twenty years after the battle of Evesham, while the last verses suggest that the song itself was composed very soon after the fatal day.
If we may judge from marginal notes, this volume belonged about the year 1270 to a certain Walterus de Hyda. If they are founded on fact, then we may gather from them that Walter had taken degrees in arts and canon law at Paris (tam in artibus quam in decretis laudabiliter rexit Parisius); also that though of gentle he was of illegitimate birth; also that some unnamed person had written to the pope asking that Walter might have a dispensation enabling him, though a bastard, to accept a bishopric in case one was offered.

SONG ON THE DEATH OF SIMON DE MONTFORT
2 Vbi fuit mons est vallis. Et de colle fit iam callis. Heus et strata publica. Non per sua merita. Bellicosus infirmatur, Alter Sampson3 trucidatur, Lamentatur Anglia. Symon pro simplicitate Marchionum4 feritate Cadit cesus framea. Die Martis5 bellum creuit, Cadit Hector6, Rachel fleuit Pro cesis in area. Comparatur hic Uluxi, Nam pro fide crucifixi Non timebat uilia. Rexit vigor in Achille, Sed et Symon talis ille Qui pugnat pro patria. Primus natus7 rexit frenum, Non permisit alienum Dare patri uulnera. Dum durauit non expauit Pater8 enses, sed certauit Propter pacis9 federa. In amore speciales Infra mundi climata. Abel Ade sociatur; Abel prius immolatur, Cadit Adam postea. In Henrico rosa vernat, Et in rosa si quis cernat Sat aperit10 lilia11. Martir fertur per ruborem, Virgo sine macula.
Comes regi sociatur. Extra bene vir armatur,Qui Oswaldus1 nuncupaturQuisquis videns hoc testaturEqua per certamina.Per signa bellifica. Nabuzardan subnervavit2. Loricatur subtus stricte;Et hunc vita superauitHanc non tulit miles ficteContinens ieiunia.Tendens ad celestia. Hic Robertum3 sequebatur. Nec contentus est hac veste;Cuius vita comendaturInvocato deo teste,Certa per miracula.Induit cilicia. Dictis eius vir obedit; Symon, Symon modo dormis!Fert Robertus, Symon credit Quam mors tua sit enormis De statutis talia:Clamat vox ad sydera. “Si verum confitearis. Ante tuum Christe uultum Et pro dictis moriaris Non relinquas hunc inultum Magna feres premia. Pro tua clemencia. “Quod vir iustus paciatur Hii6 coniuncti sunt victores, Satis liquet et probatur Et sunt vivis alciores Per magna tonitrua4. Nam vivunt in gloria. “Est lorica duplex ei. Firmiter sunt hii7 ligati Et examen huius reiQui nec morte separatiFit per eius spolia5.”Nec sunt in milicia. Pater prole confortatur, Proles patrem consolatur Dum durarent prelia. Non fuerunt duo tales Et per album fertur florem.
Et Radulfus, Basset dictus. Interfectis in agoneMiles eius est conflictusSpe mercedis et coronePaciens pericula.Christe dona grandia. Et de Baylol dictus Guydo. Symon, Symon si vixisses Signa feris corde fido Currere non permisisses Cunctis1 aparencia. Raptores in patria.Vires eius probitatis. Quis nos potest defensare? Vir in fide constans satisVenietne ultra mare Ostendebat dextera. Exspectata venia? Quando Symon fuit cesus. Custos pacis heu necatur Guydo sicut nondum lesus Et ad litus applicaturSignum fert in lancea.Nauis cum discordia. Signum iusti nunquam ruit. Incessanter Angli flere, Semper exaltatum fuit Modo possunt redolere, Inter tua brachia.Non habent remedia. Euasisse potuisti. Nisi Deus mittat eis Tamen magis elegisti Vindictam de dictis reis Symonis consorcia. Qui fecerunt scelera. Ne subuertant alieni stam terram dolo pleni, Super hanc considera.

7 Henry de Montfort. 8 Apparently pac’. 9 Corrected from patris. 3 Part of this word has perished, but it is fairly clear. 4 The Welsh marchers. 5 Tuesday, 4 Aug. 6 The H of Hector supplied above the line. 10 Apparently apererit. 11 A hole in the parchment; but I have little doubt of lilia

Comment on Open Thread – Montfort’s Descendants and Genealogy by Robert Barrow

Robert Barrow — Thu, 24 Feb 2011 16:57:01 +0000

Men of influence tempered fairness with agonizing revenge, women of strength enchanted and betrayed, and the Church perpetually affected lives destined for torment and governance enveloped in turmoil as the 12th Century ascended into the 13th. Katherine Ashe’s extensive research into Montfort and his times paints an exciting and intricately detailed portrait of justice and its evolvement within Western civilization and beyond.

After reading of the young Simon de Montfort’s jousting contest with a wayward highwayman, enthusiastically portrayed in the first few pages, it became clear that this is the adventure story craved by the motion picture industry, and I thought immediately of young Australian-born actor Chris Egan, who might make a superb Simon in an eventual movie dramatization.

From Montfort’s battlefield victories, to his marriage, to a brief fling with Henry’s Eleanor (whilst wed to another woman), accentuated by the release of a hawk, once its presence no longer assured a loving — yet forbidden — relationship enjoyed away from prying eyes, the young man exhibits a powerful, yet eternally conflicted personality.

When was mixing historical fact with story-telling ever not risky business? Nevertheless, Ashe’s obvious confidence in her laborious research has resulted in an historical viewpoint worth the trouble.

The trappings of known-world Church influence are illustrated magnificently, right down to an individual level where Simon is instructed to self-flagellate his sins away, whilst also trembling in fear when Bishop Grosseteste predicts that the tragic death of both child and father will occur simultaneously one day.

A section at the end placing significant passages and words in historical context is also helpful for the reader, who will benefit even more intimately from the author’s search for knowledge about Simon de Montfort and his era. Well done.

Comment on Open Thread – Montfort’s Descendants and Genealogy by Katherine Ashe

Katherine Ashe — Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:23:54 +0000

Hello Sally,
Delighted to hear from you. Your grandmother well might be descended from the father of the Simon I write about. The father, presently numbers V in the line of Simons de Montfort, was the hero of the Third Crusade and the Albigensian Crsade aganst heretic in southern France. I’ve not been able to open the file where i suppose the pictures are. Montfort l’Amaury, the family seat, about 45 miles west of Paris, has reduced the partial shell of a tower for at least the last hundred years. Another Montfort castle, in Israel, was called Starkenburg for a while.
Simon VI, whom i write about, had none but female descendants after the generation of his own sons. But the Tudors claimed descent from him by way of his daughter Eleanor and her daughter, her child by Llewellyn the Prince of North Wales.

Comment on Open Thread – Montfort’s Descendants and Genealogy by Sally

Sally — Wed, 02 Feb 2011 19:48:05 +0000

My Grandmother, Blanche Montfort is a supposed to be a decendant of Simone de Monfort. She had a coat of arms in her home and paintings of the Montfort Castle. Can you verify this for me?

Comment on Open Thread – Montfort’s Descendants and Genealogy by Anastasia

Anastasia — Sat, 27 Nov 2010 02:35:17 +0000

Most historians used to say that medieval European politicians failed to consider the political ideas of their famous contemporary scholars. But Simon de Montfort’s allies have a different opinion!

“Between 1258 and 1265, communitas regni, the slogan of the political discourse in the 13th century, came closest to a real and relevant existence from a social standpoint.” as Simon’s most recent biographer said.

To a certain extent, the action of the English reformers under the leadership of Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester, can be considered to be the implementation of the political theories formulated by the scholars of the period. One of these scholars was John of Salisbury who, in his work Policraticus (1159), tried to define the ideal form of government: “When divine law (iustitia) is not manifest, natural law (aequitas) – the application of a person’s ability to reason and to be fair (ratio et ius) – may intervene.” (John of Salisbury) The baronial movement revolted against the prerogatives enjoyed by the king at the time, considering that King Henry was not fulfilling his duties to the community as a whole. This is an interpretation of Salisbury’s conclusion that “if society possesses a certain, fictional persona corporis, then it must materialise in the figure of the leader, the physical expression of justice itself. He is the imago deitas but also imago aequitas and can remain king as long as he represents the equilibrium of society, between the part and the whole, between the divine and the natural… In order to become a policraticus, the leader, be it king or pope, has to be the ideal, social human being.”

Montfort’s political manifesto of 1264, the year when royal power fell under the reformers’ control, was disseminated in the form of a ballad, composed by the Franciscan monks, The Song of Lewes. In this song, Montfort was depicted as a vassal faithful to his sovereign, whose obligation was to maintain the cooperation between king and community through the agency of a council. The authors admitted that the noblemen faithful to the king despised the reformers’ ideology, dismissing it as “priest talk”. This is a reference to the fact that Simon de Montfort based his political beliefs on the political and religious writings of the Oxford University, considering the great theologian and philosopher, Robert Grosseteste, the patron of the Franciscans, as his mentor.

The comparison between the state and a living organism was one of the most widespread political ideas of the Middle Ages. In all of the existing variants, the comparison served to define the station and role of every individual, as well as their relationship with society as a whole.

“The human community is described as a living body, created by God like everything else in this world and subject to natural law (aequitas). The king represents the head of this organism. The Royal Council is its heart, the justiciars and those responsible with public order are the eyes, the ears and the tongue; the courtiers are the chest, those who govern are the unarmed hand whereas the soldiers represent the armed hand. Those in charge of the finances represent the stomach and the internal organs while the other workers represent the legs. And, in the same way in which the human body is governed by the soul, the political body has to submit to the clergy, who stand as the soul of the state.” (John of Salisbury –Policraticus)

This concept of the state as a living organism was developed in the following century by Marsiglio of Padova who “[…] in a manner similar to Aristotle, defines the state as an organism, a living being, whose component parts have to function in perfect harmony.”